Re: Muslim
Assertion:-
Muslims must not obey anyone but Allah, not even the Prophet Muhammad.
Comment:-
The Quran says:-
"Whoso obeys the Messenger he has obeyed Allah; and he who turns away - We have not sent thee as a warder over them." 4:80
It is clear that obeying Allah includes obeying the Messenger whom He has sent.
It follows that those who say the Messenger should not be obeyed are, in fact saying, "Do not obey Allah but obey me"
Can those who follow this instruction be called Muslim?
Note also:-
"Whoso obeys Allah and the Messenger, these are in the company of those unto whom Allah has shown favour, of the prophets and saints and martyrs and the righteous;- the fairest company are they." 4:69
"And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely goes astray in manifest error. " 33:36
Critic:-
It seems you are with divided allegiance if you follow Allah and follow Mohammad, as it stands today. While following Allah can be reduced to following Quran. This seems obvious. What does following Mohammad mean?
Answer:-
The Quran, being from Allah, is regarded by Muslims as having Eternal Truths. If it tells us that obeying Allah includes obeying the Messenger, then this is an Eternal Truth.
In order to fulfil this command I have to discover as far as possible what the Messenger has instructed or taught. To do this I look into the Quran as well as into his Sunna in the traditions of the Muslim community, in the written Hadith and in what has been orally transmitted through the saints.
I reject everything that contradicts the Quran and accept most of that which illuminates the passages of the Quran. As times have changed I ignore what applies to obsolete conditions and apply intelligence and analogy in adapting the teachings to new conditions just as the Prophet also did.
To obey Allah, I also fulfil the discipline He has sent, and meditate and pray and ponder and try to understand the Quran through inspiration into the heart, hoping for the fulfilment of the verse:-
"O you who believe! Respond unto Allah and His Messenger when He calls you to that which quickens you; and know that Allah comes in between a man and his own heart; and that He it is unto Whom you shall be gathered." 8:24
The Quran is understood as an inspiration or revelation in the heart as the Quran itself tells us.
I apply the same methodology to the Hadith. The two are complementary and reinforce each other. That is what the Prophet was sent for - not just to provide us with the Quran but also to demonstrate and apply it. Without this guidance we see that everyone interprets the Quran superficially according to their own whims and prejudices.
The verses of the Quran were collected together by sincere men. There is no reason to believe that the Sunna of the Prophet was not also collected by sincere men, though I am fully aware that much extraneous material has been added and we must filter this out.
But I recognise, as the Quran also predicts, that we are living in times when the spiritual sun is declining and darkness is descending and it is becoming increasingly difficult for people to acquire and keep a lighted candle.
Critic:-
Your interpretation and insistence is rather a dichotomy in allegiance, which I would assert is a later day innovation in Islam, and a cause of much grief among Muslims.
Comment:-
Obeying Allah and following the Prophet is an innovation?
You are asking us to follow your opinions instead.
Unfortunately there is a deep ignorance about Islam not merely among non-Muslims, but also among Muslims and many Muslims educated in the Western style remain ignorant about Islam but have adopted Western opinions instead.
On the contrary, it is the departure from the guidance of the Prophet that has caused naive and distorted interpretation. Different groups emphasise different parts of the Quran, ignoring others. They do the same with Hadith. And they tend to interpret both superficially without any depth of understanding, and they follow different ignorant leaders without question. But things would not have become so bad had they also understood and followed the third authority mentioned in:-
"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and those in authority amongst you; and if you dispute (quarrel or argue) about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you (in truth) believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and fairer in the end." 4:59
It is an absurdity to suppose that there can be a regeneration of Muslim communities without a moral and spiritual revival. In view of the increasing psychological, social, environmental problems that are also causing political problems, it is necessary not only for Muslims but the whole world that there should be a revival of Islam. Even if only to remove the destructive effect of ignorant militants.
Christian:-
I do not believe that the Quran is the Word of God. Nor do I believe that the Bible is either or any of the scriptures of the world. but it has been established that a Christian is not obligated to believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Someday perhaps Islam will become equally self-confident, but not these days.
Comment:-
Are you telling us that you pick and choose what you wish to believe or follow according to your own whims? If everyone has the right that you give to yourself what then is the point in discussion? Are you not trying to convince Muslims (though rather irrationally and naively) that your attitude is the better scripture?
Islam is based on the teachings in the Quran. If it is not regarded as the Word of God, then it is merely a man made book like the Bible. But then the claims in it that it is the Word of God would be false. This would make Islam "Surrender to God" false. People could then ignore God and Truth and invent their own religions as you do. This is not possible for Muslims. That is, they would not be Muslim (persons who surrender to God) if they did this.
Christian:-
To be honest, YES. I do choose what I wish to believe. And the Quran advises us all to do exactly that.
Comment:-
Are you now following the Quran? But you have obviously read the Quran only partially and superficially. Religion, especially Islam is a self-consistent whole. You cannot isolate bits. Those who follow their own selection follow their own ego - they do not surrender to God. Different people select different part of the teaching and this is how conflicting sects are formed.
"Do you then believe in part of the Book and reject the rest? But the reward of such among you as do that shall be naught else but disgrace in this worldly life, and on the day of Judgement shall they be driven to the most grievous torment, for Allah is not unmindful of what you do." 2:85
"Wherefore judge you between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their lusts but beware lest they mislead you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; and if they turn back, then know that Allah wishes to smite them for some sins of theirs. Verily, many men are rebellious." 5:49
"And those who are well grounded in knowledge say: We believe in it; it is all from our Lord; but none will grasp the message save those who possess understanding." 3:7
"Whoso will not judge by what Allah has revealed, these are the disbelievers." 5:44
"…Turning to Him only, and be careful of your duty to Him and keep up prayer and be not of those who ascribe partners to Him (polytheists), Of those who split their religion and became schismatic, every sect rejoicing in its own tenets." 30:31-32
Christian:-
No one, Christian or Muslim or anything else, is supposed to just believe. We are supposed to use our rational faculties. If you want to call rational faculties "whims" it is your privilege, but I don't have to agree.
Comment:-
(1) Your rational faculty has undergone damage owing to sin and the Fall - i.e. People rationalise according to prejudices etc. This faculty has to be purified.
(2) As far as I can see Christianity requires faith rather than reason. It is the Quran that requires that we follow nothing of which we have no knowledge through "seeing, hearing and hearts" (Quran 17:36)
(3) Religion is NOT established through logic, but through insight that requires study, prayer, meditation and the rest of the religious discipline. It is a revelation.
How can selecting what you wish to follow benefit you? Will you not just remain in the state you are instead of moving towards the state that scriptures are about?
Christian:-
The important thing is God. The scriptures are secondary. God is there waiting to communicate with us. Why do we ignore God and spend our time arguing about some old documents?
Comment:-
Correct. I agree that God comes first. But God has manifested himself by sending Messengers and scriptures to guide us. You contact God by obeying Him. Jesus tells you that and so does the Quran. There are many who think they are in contact with God when they are more likely to be deceived by Satan. We are not required to argue about scripture but to study, understand and apply it.
Christian:-
It seems to me that there is a great deal of truth in the Quran (even if it not literally the word of God) that has not been very well served by traditional Islamic scholarship. Today Islamic scholarship stands about where Christian scholarship stood about 1800 CE. Christianity has made great forward strides since then. The same opportunity is open for Muslims.
Comment:-
This is where we differ. We are not speaking about scholarship but about the original teachings of Jesus and the Quran. Christianity has been corrupted and so have Muslims since then. Attempts are being made to recover the truth.
I wonder also what you mean that something is or is not from God. Does this not refer to something that is objective or subjective? Why do you think that it is an intelligent thing to do to follow the subjective rather than the objective?
Christian:-
Everything is from God. The Quran is full of good things. But it is not a proper matter of concern how many days the world was created in. Different people had different opinions. What matters is that God created it - not the details. If you relax the requirement that all parts of the Quran be considered perfect you can save a great deal of trouble and get on with genuinely important issues - like man's relationship to God.
Comment:-
You are making the judgement about "good things" on subjective grounds. But we define the "good" as what God has given. I believe everything in the Quran has been put there for a purpose, that we need to understand it for our own good, and that by ignoring parts we are loosing out. If you relax the requirement that all parts of the Quran are perfect then no effort will be made to understand and apply those parts or any other part, because the Quran as a whole is then imperfect. How would you judge which part is or is not perfect? Guess work, whim, self-interest, or prejudice? If it is a requirement, as the Quran itself states, then to relax it is a contradiction. It is absurd, and those who hold it are damaging their own rational faculty - or they hold that view because it is damaged.
The relationship with God will be defective as long as one has reservations.
Christian:-
Let me be clear, like Al Ghazzali and, I assume, the Sufis before him, I consider the experience of God what really matters and the scriptures, all the scriptures, as useful but not definitive.
Comment:-
I think you are mistaken about the Sufis. They could not hold such a self-negating view.
Certainly the scriptures are useful. Why else would they be sent? They are useful to facilitate the contact with God. Certainly, they are a means to an end and not the end themselves. But you cannot make contact with God if you reject the Word of God.
What can you mean by "definitive"? - If you mean that you may not have understood the meaning and significance of the teachings then it is true that they cannot be definitive. But we must distinguish between the ordinary subjective consciousness that we use in daily life and a higher more objective consciousness that is in greater contact with Reality and receives revelation. The Prophets and Messengers are distinguished from ordinary people by the fact that this higher consciousness is sometimes active in them and transmits objective knowledge. Unless we recognise the existence of such knowledge and apply it, we are floundering in the dark.
Christian:-
As I see it the only possible place for any difference of opinion is in "ones deeds". I believe that we must look for a difference between religions in terms of our opinions about what deeds God favours and what deeds he deplores. If the ultimate end is the same why should anyone choose to declare himself a Muslim? Or, for that matter, a Christian or a Jew?
Comment:-
Deeds must be based on correct intentions and faith and this must be based on correct doctrines or understanding of truths. There must be a self-consistency in the world view and behaviour if human being are to grow into an integrated whole.
Certainly the Quran regards all genuine religions as one continuous phenomenon since the creation of man, though it has many Prophets and Scriptures sent to different peoples according to the conditions of the time and place. It also defines religion as behaviour according to ones inherent, God-made nature:-
"And, verily, this your religion is one religion, and I am your Lord; so keep your duty unto Me. But they (mankind) have broken their religion between them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its own tenets." 23:52-53
"Then set your purpose for religion as a man upright by nature - the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know - Turning to Him only, and be careful of your duty to Him and keep up prayer and be not of those who ascribe partners to Him (polytheists), Of those who split their religion and became schismatic, every sect rejoicing in its own tenets." 30:30-32
"Verily, whether it be of those who believe, or those who are Jews or Christians or Sabaeans, whosoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and acts aright, they have their reward with their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." 2:62
"He hath named you Muslims in old times and in this scripture, that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind..." 22:78
The name "Muslim" is applied to distinguish that from the false non-objective or man made systems.
You must not have hang-ups about words, either negative or positive. They are labels not the content, but point to the content.
It is not the declaration or label "Muslim" that matters, it is the intention and state that the word refers to, namely "one who surrender to Allah (the ultimate Truth)"
The label, name is a means of communication that tells people that they have the same life purpose as each other and this allows them to form communities where they can get mutual help and reinforcement in crying out the life purpose.
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