More Answers-2
Christian:-
I understand that the Quran is to Muslims what Jesus is to Christians. The Muslims view of the Quran seems to be that:- as Allah's speech, it is eternal and uncreated in its essence and sense (referred to in the Qur'an as the "well-guarded Tablet), and it is creation in its letters and sounds. This is not really different from the Christian view that Jesus is both God and man.
But it does not really solve the problem. It is irrelevant what is thought to be uncreated. What counts is that there is something - whatsoever - uncreated, which is not Allah, so necessarily another god.
Comment:-
This argument results from a certain kind of reasoning, Western or Aristotelian Logic, which assumes certain axioms that create dichotomies, namely "Either A or not-A", "Not both A and not-A". It is not difficult to see that because it creates dichotomies people divide themselves into opposite camps about all kinds of things and the result is endless conflict.
We can reject this Logic as man made rules which are not consistent with reality. Reason is greater than a particular idea or version of it. It has been pointed out before that the introduction of Greek Logic has had a corrupting affect on Christian and Islamic Theology, which should be based on revelation and analogical thinking.
The Quran, apart from the material form, the book as paper and ink, is the Word of God. The question now is (in this Logic): Is the Word of God created by God or not?
The Quran tells us that the verses are signs of Allah. They are manifestations just as there are signs of Allah in miracles and in creation.
We are speaking about things that are not at the mundane level where we have experience and to which our ordinary rational faculties are adapted. Therefore, all statements about it are fantasies. The words used with respect to Allah are not to be understood
literally. He is not like anything. When speaking about His face, hands and Word etc. the language is symbolic. Certainly no relativity, neither of time nor space nor differences in quality or quantity apply. There cannot be a Trinity, which compromises with plurality. The fact is that we only know the combination, the Word in physical form. The Quran tells us that Allah is not like anything. The Unity of Allah is not, therefore, as one among many, but as Absolute Uniqueness.
Man is a combination of physical body and spirit of Allah (32:9). Now then...............
When man has surrendered to Allah has he been annihilated or is he eternal?
To clarify the position:-
The Quran is the Word of God.
The Word of God is that by which the Universe was created.
The Word of God is not, therefore, itself a creation.
The Word of God is Truth.
Truth is an attribute of God.
An attribute of God is a manifestation or sign of God with respect to the created world.
This can be regarded as an agreement with John 1:1:-
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word of God is not, however separately a god.
Jesus is "the Word made flesh" John 1:14. As such he was a creation, and had limitations, a beginning and end. The Quran in the same way is the Word made Book. It is also a creation.
The Spirit of God is not separately a God either. The Quran tells us:-
"The Spirit is by the Command of Allah." 17:85
This verse obviously connects Allah, the Word and Spirit.
But as to the notion of Trinity the Quran tells us:- "Say not Three. Desist. It is better for you"
The belief in the Trinity does not, therefore, seem to be an unforgivable sin. But the main objection is to make the human messenger into a God. The full verse reads:-
"O ye people of the Book! Do not commit excesses in your religion, nor say against Allah anything save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, was but the messenger of Allah and His Word, which He cast into Mary and a Spirit from Him; believe then in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three." Desist! it is better for you. Allah is only one Allah, Glory be to Him, too Exalted is He that He should beget a Son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and that is in the earth, and Allah sufficeth as Defender." 4:171
Critic:-
You say:- (1) The Quran is the Word of God. (2) The Word of God is that by which the Universe was created.
So, the Quran is that by which the Universe was created?
Bad logic I suppose. But normal use of language justifies making inferences such as that above. To deny it is to deny an essential feature of language, one that can't be set aside in awkward cases.
But you say:- (3) The Word of God is not, therefore, itself a creation.
You are using logical inference right here.
Comment:-
We see here that this critic insists on thinking in terms of Greek Logic and comes to absurd conclusions. He has not noticed that I am not using Greek Logic but revelations and common intelligence. Here is an excerpt from a previous article:-
Re: Quran
The Quran is obviously created as to its physical existence. But the truth in it is not. Those who read the Quran will come across the following verses:-
(1) Allah is Truth:-
"That is because Allah, He is the Truth, and that whereon they call instead of Him is the False, and because Allah, He is the High, the Great." 22:62
"On that day Allah will pay them their just due; and they shall know that Allah, He is the Manifest Truth." 24:25
(2) Allah's Word is Truth:-
"His word is Truth; and His is the Kingdom on the day when the trumpets shall be blown, the Knower of the unseen and of the evident; He is the Wise and Aware." 6:74
"He (Allah) said: The Truth Is, and the Truth I speak.." 38:85
(3) The Quran is Truth:-
"Or do they say: He (Muhammad) has invented it? Nay! It is the truth from your Lord that you may warn a people to whom no Warner has come before you, that they may follow the right direction." 32:3
"And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the Truth, confirming that which was revealed before it; verily, Allah is Aware, Seer of His servants." 35:31
"That (is), because Allah has revealed the Book with truth, but verily those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism far (from the goal)." 2:176
That the Quran is Truth and the significance of this is also mentioned in 3:3, 3:60, 4:170, 1:109, 17:105, 28:53, 45:6, 47:2 and other verses, including the following:-
"Behold! Allah does not disdain to set forth a similitude even of a gnat, or anything lower or higher; and as for those who believe, they know that it is truth from the Lord; but as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this as a parable? He leads astray many and He guides many;- but He leads astray only the miscreants." 2:26
The conclusion is obvious unless, of course, you judge the Quran by means of alien assumptions rather than by the Quran itself.
(4) Allah creates with Truth:-
"Do they not reflect within themselves: Allah did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them but with truth, and for an appointed term (or destined end)? But truly most of the people are disbelievers in the meeting with their Lord." 30:8
"We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them both, save with truth. And, verily, the Hour is surely coming; then do thou forgive with a gracious forgiveness." 15:85
"And Allah created the heavens and the earth with Truth and that every soul may be rewarded for what it has earned and they shall not be wronged." 45:22
Also see 16:3, 29:44, 39:5, 44:39, 46:3, 64:3 etc.
Truth, we see, is a creative force and that is its significance not only in the Universe but also in human societies and within themselves spiritually.
A Muslim Critic:-
Dr. Heger, a scholar of the Quran, tells us that Jesus is "kalimatu llah", "the word of Allah" according to Quran 4:171! So, you people who maintain that the Quran is uncreated, tell us how Jesus then can be created (as the Quran confirms at other places)!
Comment:-
This has been explained before. Stubbornness is not a virtue. But if you do not understand, then let us say: To you your understanding and to others theirs.
As long as you use naive Logic you will not understand. This will be especially so if you take the likes of Dr. Heger (A hostile Christian "scholar" of the Quran) for guidance, rather than the Quran or Islamic sources.
I understand your position - you think that if the Quran is uncreated then there will be two uncreated things, Allah and the Quran and the Christian Trinity can be justified in the same way. But the position of the others is that the Quran is not separate from Allah.
Can you not see that the word "Quran" is being used in two different senses. One is talking about the physical book and the other about the Truth in it. The Quran is also dealing with the same kind of confusion in Christian doctrine.
The Quran also tells us that we must not make distinctions between Allah and the Messengers (4:150), and that obeying the Messenger is obeying Allah (4:80). But this does not make us believe that the Messengers ARE Allah, despite your logic.
To understand things you must look intelligently at the context to see what is meant.
Jesus is created because Allah says so. 3:59. Whether you believe this or not, the fact is that this is the position of the Quran. The Word of Allah, thought of separately from Allah, is a created thing. Jesus, a physical human being, is like the physical Quran.
If I write you a letter containing my words then these words are not me. But the idea which I convey through them is a part of me.
In essence, the Quran is a revelation not a creation.
"That (is), because Allah has revealed the Book with truth, but verily those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism far (from the goal)." 2:176
The idea that the Quran is uncreated comes, as indicated above, from the verses which tell us that:- the Quran is Truth from God (10:109, 28:53, 47:2 etc.); that Allah is Truth (22:62); and that Truth Is and Allah speaks Truth (38:85); and that Allah has created the heavens and earth with Truth (16:3). Thus we see that Truth is not a creation, but things are created with Truth.
But yes all human beings have the Spirit of God in them 15:29, 32:9 and the Spirit is not created. This also applies to Jesus.
Do you understand all this? No? O.K. You can believe what you like. Allow others the same right.
No one should try to impose their ideas on others, though explaining them and discussion is obviously beneficial and right.
The Prophet (saw) is reported to have said: "Disputation about the Quran is infidelity."
Critic:-
When someone wants to discuss the validity of something, he should first look at the qualities of its founder. An examination of the life of Muhammad shows that he had morally low character. For instance, he married a girl when she was 6 years old, had nine wives though he limited his followers to 4, took the wife off his adopted son, had a poet killed who criticized him, raided the caravans of Arab merchants like a bandit, fought many battles killing his opponents, murdered many Jewish prisoners of war. How can any decent human being follow such an example. He is an example to terrorists.
Comment:-
These are your interpretations. You get your information from the Hadith. You accept as true all reports which you can interpret in this hostile manner, but you reject all reports which show his virtues and that he was a Prophet of God. In fact, the Hadith are not always reliable and often do not give enough details to make such judgments about his intentions. On the contrary, Muhammad was well respected and there was no great moral criticism by his contemporaries. Muslims do not interpret his behaviour in this way. His actions had an objective and not a subjective motive. His marriages, for instance, had compassionate or even diplomatic reasons. He fought in defense of Islam against attack and he judged the Jews according to their own laws. Your view is not, therefore, the Islamic view and it is not what Muslims present. On the other hand people can, and do, twist things to suit their own purposes.
Sorry we do not accept hostile speculation as anything but an indication of the speculators mentality. Nor is the behaviour of a person proof or otherwise of the veracity of the statements he makes or his beliefs and ideals. On the contrary these may govern his behaviour.
Any thing can be interpreted negatively or positively. Remarks similar to the one's made by the critic could be made, and have been made about the Prophets of the Old Testament, including Abraham, Moses and David. Hostile commentators could, and do, malign Jesus also because he was unmarried, associated with prostitutes and sinners, insulted the Pharisees, lost his temper in the Temple and upset their stalls, cursed the fig tree because it gave him no fruit, and caused the devils to enter swine and then drown.
On the other hand, Muslims do not think that Muhammad was God, as Christians regard Jesus. He did make mistakes as the Quran itself records, but was reprimanded and guided by God, repented and was forgiven. It is not possible for man to follow a God. That is, probably, why Christians expect to be saved by Jesus rather than by obeying the instructions he brought from God. Yet Jesus asked his disciples to follow him and obey God. For Muslims, Muhammad is an example of how a human being can perfect himself by surrender through the instructions he brought from God.
Critic:-
No one denies the morality of fighting in self-defense. It is permissible and when the "self" being defended includes your family and/or your community, it can even be very noble. But, as your own Quranic quotations indicate, Islam encourages violence in self-defense to an extent unprecedented in its immediate predecessor, Christianity. In fact, in very sharp contrast to the teachings of Christianity, Muslims are "REQUIRED to fight in self-defence." Christianity encourages Christians to "love" their enemies, "pray" for their enemies, "do good" to those who persecute them. This does not preclude self-defense, but it holds up a higher ideal of self-sacrifice.
Comment:-
You appear to have a naive view of Religion and its function in human affairs.
A study of the Quran will show you that the teachings of Jesus are also in the Quran. See the article Views of Islam - 4. Love on my website.
"And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel evil with what is best, when lo! He between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were an intimate friend. And none are granted this power but those who possess patience and self-restraint, and none are granted it but the owners of great happiness. " 41:34-35
But religions do differ because of the people it comes to and the times and circumstances. Islam places emphasis on truth and it a religion of action. Unlike Jesus (saw) but like Moses (saw), Muhammad (saw) was establishing a State. From the Islamic point of view life in this world has a purpose and is not itself the goal.
Moses and his followers were required to fight. If Jesus had taught retaliation when the Romans were powerful, his followers would have been wiped out. This happened to the Jews who did not follow Jesus but mounted an armed rebellion against Rome. The success of Christianity depended on the method brought by Jesus. The success of Islam depended on the method brought by Muhammad.
Critic:-
When the Quran "forbids [Muslims] respecting those who made war upon [them] on account of [their] religion," and commands you to "kill [the aggressors] wherever ye find them," the best that can be said for those passages is that they are morally justified. But there is a righteousness that exceeds this mere morality, and the Quran seems to be directly and explicitly forbidding you from engaging in the pursuit of that higher morality. How can this therefore be God's most perfect revelation to mankind? You can dismiss and denounce me for asking such an difficult and ultimately disrespectful question. (Though I mean no disrespect by it.) If you are unwilling or unable to answer this question, how can you ask a Christian to accept Islam when it would seem that we find a another perfect teacher of higher ideals in the Gospels?
Comment:-
The answers are in the Quran. All your questions have been answered several times on this and other sites by many people including myself. But the questioners come without reading and instead of investigating come making naive assertions. One gets weary of answering the same thing time and again.
The highest morality is to do everything for the sake of God, as an agent for Him. That is what Islam means.
"Say: Verily, my worship and my sacrifice, and my living and my dying belong to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. He has no partner. This I am commanded, and I am foremost of those who surrender (unto Him)" 6:163-164
However, the Hebrew and the Christian principles are also included. The Quran tells us:-
"The guerdon of an ill-deed is an ill the like thereof. But whosoever pardons and amends, his wage is the affair of Allah. Lo! He loves not wrongdoers. And whoso defends himself after he has suffered wrong - for such there is no blame against them. The blame is only against those who oppress mankind and wrongfully rebel in the earth. For such there is a painful doom. And verily whoso is patient and forgives - lo! that verily is the steadfast heart of things." 42:40-43
These verses combine the Jewish law of Justice "An eye for an eye" with the Christian law of Love, forgiveness. The law of retaliation has a social function. It is a deterrent. In so far as people seek pleasure and reward and avoid pain and punishment and learn from the consequences of actions, then this law is natural. It is natural also in that we all have the tendency to retaliate, to equalise our interactions and to discharge the resentment that an injustice builds up. Without this possibility the resentment festers and becomes the cause of all kinds of psychological malfunctions, including those of thought, motivation and action. It also indicates to others that something is wrong and should not be done. The pain inflicted by retaliation is a repayment in kind and a deterrent. Law is retaliation. Evil would flourish with impunity without it.
But forgiveness of a wrong has a spiritual value. The individual transforms the energy of resentment within himself to a self-constructive purpose and gains in control over himself. It is also to be noted that if A offends B then he will become resentful. He will have to discharge this on A or, if he cannot because A is too powerful etc., then some other people C, by injuring them. Now C becomes resentful. He will discharge this on B or some other people D. And so on. In a closed society, therefore, this resentment and the associated suffering will continue to circulate indefinitely. But the individual who has truly forgiven has transformed the energy so that he no longer passes it on. The whole society has benefited from his act as well as himself. The whole condition has been lifted to a higher plane. The same considerations apply on an international level. It facilitates evolution.
Love can, however be directed wrongly, and this is no virtue. Wisdom is also required:-
"Those who love the life of the world more than the Hereafter and debar people from the way of Allah and would have it crooked, such are far astray." 14:3
"Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves rivals to Allah, loving them with a love like that which is due to Allah only. Those who believe are stauncher in their love for Allah." 2:165
Critic:-
It is claimed that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA and probably in the World. But statistics are biased. These statistics do not take into account apostasy, drifting away, lapse of faith, conversion out of Islam. People are now running away from Islam like the plague. Islam is not only in decline but is imploding.
Comment:-
How do you know this? Seems like wishful thinking.
In fact, like those who are called Christians, a great number of those called Muslims are not religious at all - i.e. they may, not only not know, understand or practice their religion, but may even be atheist. And a great number who still feel they are religious have a very naive and superstitious understanding of it just as do most practicing Christians.
It is usually converts, who study, know, understand and practice the religion better, being free of the corrupting influence of habit, traditions and culture.
Those who really know, understand and practice their religion are few in number in any religion. But there are, most probably, a much greater number of Muslim among these than there are of any other religion. One could say that the dropping out of those who do not understand and practice their religion is a good thing. This leaves minds free to accept Islam at a higher, more intelligent level.
Therefore, the future, for real Islam is bright.
Critic:-
Muslims say that Christ is a Muslim. This is clearly an absurd statement. The religion of Muslims came hundreds of years after Christianity.
Comment:-
Christ is a Title. It is a translation of Messiah, which means someone anointed to be king, in the case of Jesus, anointed with the Holy Spirit to be a spiritual king. It is the man Jesus who is a Muslim by the following definition:-
The word Islam means "Surrender to Allah". Allah is described comprehensively in the Quran and is not to be confused with other definitions or descriptions of God. Allah is the all pervasive, self-existent fundamental Reality, the creator and ruler of the Universe, the Absolute, the One and only.
The word "Muslim" is applied in the Quran to all who "surrender to Allah". It refers to all the Messengers Allah sent and to all their true followers. This includes the original Jews and Christians, i.e. the followers of Moses (saw) and Jesus (saw) and it includes the followers of Muhammad (saw). It probably also includes the original followers of Krishna and Buddha.
Jesus said:-
"I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear, I judge; and my judgement is just because I SEEK NOT MINE OWN WILL, but the WILL OF THE FATHER which hath sent me." John 6:30
"..I do nothing of myself; but as the Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28
Jesus did not do or speak of himself but what God instructed. See also John 6:38, 57, 7:16, 8:28, 10:37-38, 12:49. He also kept his followers in Gods name (John 17:12).
Thus Jesus was a Muslim according to the above definitions. It does not matter whether Christians or others deny it because they have some other understanding - he is a Muslim according to the Islamic definitions.
True Christians, those who follow Jesus rather than some other teachers, are Muslims. Conversely, Muslims are true Christians in that they accept Jesus who taught surrender to God just as Muhammad did.
Critic:-
We ought to judge the religion by the people who profess it. Islam produces many terrorists.
Comment:-
No. Religions bring a teaching meant to improve people. This means that they require improving. Religion is for sinners. People can know, understand and practice these teachings to various degree or not at all. Many claim to be followers of a religion but are not and misinterpret religion for their own ends. This is so also in Christianity and all other religions
Critic:-
We never know "the scriptures" we know peoples' INTERPRETATIONS of their scriptures.
Comment:-
This applies to science or anything else as well.
But Islam requires us NOT to follow other people's interpretation (this would be third hand - interpretation of interpretation of the scriptures), but to make ones own study and arrive at one's own understanding. Things must be made into "one's own". That is to say one must aim for increasing comprehensiveness and self-consistency (Unity) of ideas and being. To facilitate this one also takes the guidance of those who have knowledge. (See articles on Authority and Knowledge). As the Prophet (saw) said:-
"This knowledge is Religion, so consider from whom you receive your religion."
Critic:-
Secondly, the question going through my mind is if salat (prayer) chases away evil how come the group of people making salat are known for their infliction of death and pain?
Comment:-
Salat (Prayer) must be done correctly to be effective. It must be done meditatively with body mind and soul. If it is done without knowledge and without mental concentration and has no inner content but is merely mechanical, habit and ritualism then it is ineffective.
But those who are aware of the presence of Allah, and are conscious of what they are saying in prayer, will soon discover that some of their actions, motives, feelings and thoughts contradict what they have learnt from the Quran. These may also contradict their own inherent conscience (unless that is fully suppressed).
The awareness of this contradiction, the inner conflict, is sufficient to make them uncomfortable. There is an inbuilt need and desire for inner unity, harmony and peace. There is, therefore, a desire to escape the conflict and restore peace. The problem so caused energizes and stimulates action to solve it. The problem can only be resolved in three ways - attack, defense, and escape. Within each category one can act positively or negatively or in a catalytic manner. One can:-
(1) Remove the contradiction by repressing one or the other factor out of consciousness. This cultivates unconsciousness. One can do this by construction "barriers" or putting one's attention on "distractions" or "excuses" or "scapegoats". One can "project" the defect on others or rationalize them away. And one can attack whatever tries to remind one of these defects. All this distorts the ability to perceive, think, intend and act correctly.
(2) One can abandon prayer and religion to various degrees or altogether. One can do this subconsciously or consciously by finding reasons why it is bad.
(3) One can ask God for forgiveness and help in making amends and so improve gradually i.e. become progressively a unified (wHoly) human being.
Examples of all three reactions can be found everywhere.
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