Intercession
Muslim A:-
Some people think that we worship Ali or the Imams. We do not worship other than Allah, but we ask for the intercession of the Prophet and Saints on our behalf.
Comment:-
I do not find any reason for objecting to this. The Quran appears to allow the intercession of the Messenger - Quran 3:159. We are allowed to pray for the welfare of others.
But a question comes to mind:- It is Allah who forgives or grants - What, then, is the point in asking the Prophets or Saints? Will they plead for you against the wishes of Allah? Or will they persuade Allah to go against His own judgments?
How would you justify this practice?
Muslim B:-
The Quran allows us to ask living people to pray for us, but the Prophet (SAW) is dead and has only ONE intercession left which he saved for Judgment Day.
Your argument is flawed.
Comment:-
Interesting. I was not asking you, but the person I was replying to.
Will the Prophet not be alive when he intercedes on the Day of Judgment?
It was not an argument, but a question. Could you not see the difference?
But as you are anxious to reply and you say that the living can intercede, then perhaps you would like to answer the above questions.
Note:- Like the martyrs, the Prophets, saints and the righteous are regarded as alive in an unperceived form according to some people - Quran 4:69. I think this is correct.
Muslim A:-
The Quran says:- "Reckon not those who are slain in the way of Allah, to be dead; Nay! They are alive and are being sustained by their Lord." (3:169)
Comment:-
According to most people this speaks of martyrs who die in battle. Are you saying that one can pray to martyrs? Is this not worshipping other than Allah?
(Note: In case others jump into this discussion - I am only asking you.
I myself believe that 3:169 is speaking about the righteous - those who die while serving Allah. "...and die not save as those who have surrendered i.e. in a state of Islam - 3:102. But praying to other than Allah is forbidden.
Muslim A:-
It is also in contradiction to the saying of Prophet Muhammad (saw)- When some of his companions objected that how could the dead hear him, the Prophet (saw) replied: "You are not more hearing than them." Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 14, p. 111, Dar Ihya' al-Turath, Beirut; Sahih al-Muslim, chapter 51, pp. 76-77; Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol. 1, p. 26 & vol. 2, pp. 31 & 131; Musnad Tiyalisi, hadith 403.
Hafiz al-Nawawi in al-Majmu' fi Sharh al-Muhadhdhab says that while standing beside the tombs of Prophets, especially the shrine of Prophet Muhammad (s), it is recommended to request them to supplicate God for our needs, since they are alive and as the Holy Qur'an says: "are being sustained by their Lord." (3:169).
Comment:-
Who recommends this? It is not in the Quran and I do not know of any Sunna of the Prophet (saw) which does so.
Muslim A:-
Anyway your last question: How would you justify this practice?
Actually this depends a lot on sincerity. If a person is truly sincere and in his prayer for forgiveness, he includes those who Allah loves dearly, (Rasulullah (SAW) and his Family members, then inshaallah, Allah will forgive him/her. By the way would you consider that making prayer is a means to "persuade Allah to go against His own judgments?" ?
Comment:-
There are three fallacies here:-
(1) Prayer is not done because it benefits Allah but because it benefits the worshipper. It is Allah who forgives those who repent and pray for forgiveness. That is what the worshipper does when he sincerely prays. This is Allah doing what He promises. He is NOT going against His judgment.
(2) To include in prayer those who Allah loves is clearly superfluous as far as they are concerned because Allah already loves them. It is only effective for the person who does the praying because he is aligning himself with those Allah loves. But if you pray for others you are also demonstrating and reinforcing your love for them that will benefit you and may affect those whom you love.
(3) Including other people in one's prayer is not the same thing as praying TO them. Praying AT the shrine of a saint or a holy place is not praying TO the Saint. Praying to the Saint is clearly idolatry.
Muslim A:-
Allah's judgments are based on your deeds. And if your deeds include prayer that asks for forgiveness, surely Allah will forgive you if you are sincere. Maybe if you hadn't asked for Allah's forgiveness in your prayer something bad may have happened. So prayer is something that will avoid bad things to befall you. Duas, prayers, are things that will persuade Allah to grant you forgiveness.
Comment:-
You are mistaken. To say that you can persuade Allah is not compatible with His omnipotence nor with Surrender. You obey Him and fulfill His conditions for forgiveness.
Muslim A:-
What is more if you, living in this century, a long time after Rasulullah (SAW) has passed away, still remember him, his Ahlul Bayt, and the family of Ibrahim (AS) etc., surely Allah will recognize those who seek nearness to Him by recognizing the signs of His Greatness (i.e. his Prophet's and Imams) as Allah loves them dearly.
Comment:-
Yes. Aligning yourself with the righteous is spiritually beneficial. Praying to them is to insult them because even the Prophet (saw) forbade praying to him. But people wish to pray to persons less than him, persons whom Allah has not chosen as a Messenger!
Muslim A:-
As for the wicked:- "Alike it is for them whether you seek forgiveness for them or seek not forgiveness for them; Never will God forgive them..." (63:6)
Comment:-
Exactly. The Quran instructs the Prophet (saw) to ask Allah for forgiveness on behalf of people, but not for the miscreants. It does not instruct human beings to ask the Prophet (saw) or any saint to forgive or to ask Allah on their behalf. The instructions to the Messenger are part of his function - he was sent to lead human beings to Allah, to His forgiveness.
Praying to the Prophet and saints is futile idolatry. Pray directly to Allah. Study the following:-
"So, if they ask thy leave for any of their own concerns, then give leave to whomsoever thou wilt of them, and ask for them forgiveness of Allah; verily, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 24:62
"The heavens may almost be rent asunder from above them (by His Glory) while the angels sing the praise of their Lord and ask forgiveness for those on earth; verily Allah is the Forgiving, the Merciful." 42:5
"We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them both, save with truth. And, verily, the Hour is surely coming; then do thou forgive with a gracious forgiveness." 15:85
"It is not for the prophet and those who believe to ask forgiveness for the idolaters, even though they be their kindred, after it has been made manifest to them that they are the fellows of hell." 9:113
"Ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them; if they shouldst ask forgiveness for them seventy times, yet would not Allah forgive them; that is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah guides not a people who work abomination." 9:80
"It is not for the prophet and those who believe to ask forgiveness for the idolaters, even though they be their kindred, after it has been made manifest to them that they are the fellows of hell." 9:113
"Those who when they do an evil, or wrong themselves, remember Allah, and ask forgiveness for their sins - and who forgives sins save Allah alone? - And do not knowingly repeat the wrong they did." 3:135
"His forgiveness is not for those who do evil until death approaches and then he says: Now I repent, nor yet for those who die faithless. For such We have prepared a grievous woe." 4:18
"Allah has promised to those who believe and work righteousness, that for them is forgiveness and a mighty reward." 5:9
"And they shall not have any intercessors from among their gods they have joined with Allah, and they shall be deniers of their associate-gods." 30:13
"…and remind them hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it has earned. It has, beside Allah, no patron or intercessor; and though it should offer every compensation (or ransom) it will not be accepted." 6:70
"They shall have no power of intercession, save him who has taken a covenant with his Lord." 19:87 and 20:109, 34:23, 53:26
"Say: To Allah belongs all intercession; His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, then to Him you shall be brought back." 39:44
Muslim A:-
Yes, praying TO anyone but Allah is not acceptable. Praying FOR someone is acceptable. Praying to Allah while including and mentioning people who represent the STRAIGHT PATH is acceptable. Shiahs believe the STRAIGHT PATH is represented by the Ahlul Bayt.
Comment:-
I am glad we agree about praying to and praying for.
However, the Straight Path is the path to Allah and is another name for the true religion, the path of Islam. The Messengers were on the Straight Path and show us the Straight Path. The Ahlul Bayt, if this term refers to only the righteous descendants of the Prophet (saw), are on the Straight Path. But if they are not righteous then they are not on the Straight Path. This applies to anyone else. Other people, who are not Ahlul Bayt, are also on the Straight Path if they are righteous and not on it if they are not righteous. So why not pray for all the righteous?
As far as I understand it Ahlul Bayt means the spiritual descendants of the Prophet, not the physical descendants, though these may be included. The recognition of this would go a long way in removing the controversy between Sunni and Shiah. These are certainly worth following and ought to be accepted as the leaders of the community.
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