Is the Quran Poetry?
Orientalist:-
The Quran contains poetry. But Muslims deny this for some unknown reason. It is often bad poetry and even bad prose.
Comment:-
"Some unknown reason"? Does this "expert" on the Quran not know or understand?
"And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain (clarifying) Quran, That it may warn him who would have life, and that the word may prove true against the disbelievers." Quran 36:68-69
Poetry is something which appeals to the emotions and feelings. The Quran, on the other hand is designed to inspire by arousing consciousness, conscience and will. When did poetry create a world movement, a civilization and empires?
Orientalists who read the Quran as if it were poetry are worse than those who pick up a text book on science and read it as if it were a novel.
They are completely off the point. It is as if instead of eating an apple and taking its nutrition they regarded it as a decoration admiring it for its colour and shape.
Many Orientalists do not understand that Muslims regard the Quran as the Word of God, that it comes through a higher consciousness from an Objective Source, and that is how they interpret the words in the Quran. But even if they do not accept or understand this, it is surely unintelligent to say the least to interpret a book by criteria which are not the same as those which the author intended.
It is precisely because of this that the opinions of these Orientalists about the Quran are entirely irrelevant to Islam and most Muslims.
Orientalist:-
There is a nice saying in English, which I unfortunately don't remember exactly, going something like this: If it looks like a duck, it walks like a duck ...then it is a duck.
Your approach, however, is to say it is no poetry, because the Quran says it is not Poetry. Now it is mysterious for me why.
Comment:-
To complete this:- But, by gum, it was a hallucination about a robot duck.
But this is discovered only when the person wakes up. This unfortunately is not always the case.
There is, of course, some resemblance in the Quran with poetry as there is also between poetry and prose.
If "X" has characteristics "a", "b", "c", "d" and "Y has characteristics "c", "d", "e", "f", then because "X" resembles "Y" in some respects "b" and "c", then according your absurd logic, "X" is "Y" all because of the inability to see the differences "a", "b", "e" and "f"! This incapacity appears to exist in many of the articles of the Orientalists that I have seen.
Of course it is mysterious to you. You think it is untrue because it is written in the Quran!
I take the word of the Author as to what He intended. The Quran points to a Truth, it is for the reader to verify and understand it. I believe it, because this enables me to understand what it says.
But you think I ought to believe you rather than the Quran and get into the same confusion and superficialities as you. This certainly would be stupid of me.
The Quran also says:-
"This is the Book! There is no doubt therein; a guide to the pious....These are guided by their Lord, and these are the successful. Verily, those who misbelieve, it is the same to them if ye warn them or if ye warn them not, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and on their hearing; and on their eyes is dimness, and for them is grievous woe. " Quran 2:2-7
And I believe this also, because it is demonstrated to me, and the latter part is demonstrated on these Internet sites by people like you.
It is also common psychological knowledge that people see or not see according to their motives and desires. The truth of this has been observed by me and can be verified by anyone.
Orientalist:-
You quoted a number of pious verses from the Koran, threatening nasty people like me, but you evaded coming to the point: In my previous message I had quoted Quran 89:6-14. Is this a poem, or is it not?
Please do not drop some hasty words like "a hallucination about a robot duck". The verses I am asking about are no robot verses. They are taken from your Quran.
Comment:-
The verses I quoted were general, not addressed to a particular person. They were not threats, but statements about certain mental states and their consequences. I quoted these to show that it was a known state.
Sorry. If you have not understood what I wrote, I cannot help you. But just in case, I will repeat:-
There are resemblances between poetry and the verses of the Quran and between prose and poetry and between a number of other things, "X" and "Y". If you do not discriminate because you take away the differences or cannot see them, then everything is the same. And if you cannot differentiate then you cannot understand.
If someone writes something with a certain intention and you mistake that intention or do not admit it then you cannot understand what that person is saying and your opinions on what he said become wholly irrelevant.
Whereas you might say "If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck...then it is a duck.", another observer, who sees the reality,could say: "But by gum, it was a hallucination about a robot duck."
Could you not understand this either?
There are Quranic verses "X". These are interpreted by readers. You think they are "Y" and your opinions and comments are based on that. Others see it as "X". Therefore, they see "Y" as a hallucination or illusion.
The reason I spoke of a "robot duck" is because you used the duck as an analogy. I was trying to show that a "robot duck" resembles a "real duck", but is a mechanical thing which lacks life and mind. This is the difference between the Quran as you see it and as it was meant to be.
I hope this clarifies.
As I said your opinions have no relevance whatsoever to Islam as the opinions of a non-scientist who does not practice the science are irrelevant to science.
Take the following example:-
Orientalist:-
Subject: How to understand Quran 96:19
We can trace some of the words in the Quran to a non-arabic source... the enigmatic imperatives "wa-sjud wa-qtarib", "and prostrate and approach!" in surah 96:19 originally were intended to convey the meaning of "worship God and take part in the Eucharistic Liturgy!"
Comment:-
The gist of this argument seems to be comparable to the following:-
If I take an English word and trace it back to a French or German origin, or even to a word which resembles it, and take that meaning, this will tell me what the English word means in England now! And, of course, I can also tell the English that they do not mean what they mean when they use the word, because I know the real meaning.
I am reminded of a book which appeared about 15 or more years ago by a Professor Allegro, an expert on Aramaic. He had examined the original New Testament, and came to the conclusion that Jesus and his followers belonged to a Mushroom Cult and that the Eucharist was really a ceremony involving the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms.
There does not seem to be any good reason why naive literalism should be applied to a revealed work. It is the same as interpreting poetry literally. Try this kind of analysis on Blake's poems for instance! It makes little literal sense.
It is like an Englishman saying "this critic is up the pole", and a foreigner denying it because he cannot see him up any literal pole.
I find no problem in understanding 96:19 as usually interpreted and translated, "bow down in worship and bring thyself closer to Allah."
The Eucharist is a form of worship not because of its outer actions, but only in its inner state. The verse takes the inner meaning. I am sure that most students of the Quran can see that the outer meaning is not compatible with the rest of the Quran. But the verse might have been addressed to Christians who used or understood the word as referring to the Eucharist. It is not unusual to use a general term to refer to a particular case of it. But it is necessary to distinguish between them in order to understand which is meant. And if one took the word "prostration" literally it certainly does not mean "worship".
The idea that the Christians of the area converted to Islam because the Quran tells them to return to the Christian Eucharist is absurd.
The literalist persistently ignores the meaning and significance and concentrates his mind on the shell. But Orientalists says it is prose or poetry according to whether it is convenient for their pre-suppositions. The Quran is not prose and not poetry either.
A Reader:-
Do you think these scholars are fools?
Comment:-
I have not used that word. It depends on what you mean. People have different kinds of intelligence and may be very intelligent in some ways and fools in others.
I do not think that they have any idea about what they are dealing with and use naive presuppositions about its nature to arrive at irrelevant conclusions. One of them, at least, admits that he cannot understand 20% of the Quran. But I think that it is more likely to be 100%. Intelligent people when they cannot understand ask those who know instead of making up their own speculations.
For one thing they cannot comprehend and, therefore, ignore the fact that the Quran, as the name implies, is a recitation. It was meant to have an effect. It did that and created a new spiritual force in the world, a new way of life, attitude and way of thinking, a civilization and empires. The written words are a vessel and only have significance with respect to that aim.
For another, the Quran contains numerous instructions as to how it should be read. The reader is required to purify himself inwardly and outwardly by ritual washing before he reads the Quran, and be in a reverend, meditative, receptive mood. These scholars do no such preparations.
Thirdly, the Prophet told us that the Quran has an inner meaning as well as an outer one and its verses are compact, concentrated with meaning. It should be obvious that this would require quite a different style from normal. But these scholars ignore this and look only to the surface meaning.
I think that they might be quite intelligent in other directions and ought to take up criticism of novels, poetry or the theater. That might be useful and entertain a greater audience.
Another Reader:-
After reading all these interesting postings I am left more than a little bewildered, what exactly is the problem with part of the Quran's "revelation" being in prose or poetry? Are Muslims saying that God cannot create majestic prose?
Comment:-
There is no question of God not being able to create prose or poetry. It is a question of what God intended and that the Quran states that the Prophet was not taught poetry. There must be a reason for stating this.
The Quran has a unique style because it has a unique source and purpose.
Reader:-
According to some Muslims that I have met there is indeed first class prose and poetry in the Quran, now if this is indeed so, why then deny it? Prose in any language has rules pertaining to that language and its usage. If experts Arab or others say that there is prose within the Quran, why would this be a theological problem?
Comment:-
The problem is that some people criticize the Quran on the grounds that it does not follow conventional grammar and is then regarded as bad prose, and if it does not follow what people think poetry should be, then they say it is bad poetry. If they think it is prose or poetry then, like some people we could mention, they do not understand it at all. But the Quran transcends these limitations.
Reader:-
If I understand part of the anti-prose argument that is conveyed here, then only those who truly understand Arabic (i.e. Arab native speakers) can truly understand the Quran. If this is so then Islam is racially specific (i.e. for Arabs only) and NOT a universal faith for all men to share, because all men will never speak Arabic as a first language.
Comment:-
It is mainly an anti-poetry argument not an anti-prose one - if everything spoken or written in words which is not poetry (has rhythm and rhymes) is prose.
It is perfectly true that the Quran itself being originally a unique recitation in Arabic cannot be fully and accurately translated, specially because the language is often very compact containing a wealth of meaning. But the words contain a message, not just in words, and this can be conveyed by Muslims to others through translations and commentaries and lectures. Indeed, even Arab Muslims must learn the subtler aspects of the Quran from others who understand it better.
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