Dialogue with a Christian
Christian:-
The concept of the Trinity is one God in three persons; not three gods.
Comment:-
I know what various Christians believe. They do not all believe the same thing. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are three persons, specially when the Son is a man and to be distinguished from the other two who are also to be distinguished from each other.
Christian:-
Jesus Christ is understood by Christians as a person that had two natures but now has one. One was human and the other is divine.
Comment:-
I do not know what is meant by two natures. From the Islamic point of view man is made of clay and God has put His spirit into Man (Quran 32:9). This is the nature of man. But it does not make him into a god.
Christian:-
I will clarify what I mean by divine and having two natures. It is meant by having all the attributes that belong to God. When not on earth, he is a divine being (herein after Io a divine being as one that is God in the full sense). When he was on earth, he was a man that put aside certain attributes of divinity such as being all knowing. Just because he put things aside for a time being, that didn't make him less a divine being. Consider the analogy of a policeman that is off duty. He is still considered a policeman because he is employed by the state but when off duty he is just any civilian.
Comment:-
Does the policeman forget the law when he is off duty? Is God off duty? What happens to the Universe when he is off duty? Who robs God of his authority when he is off duty? Who is the State in this context? What do you mean by a divine being? Are there other gods in heaven besides the Father. Or is it the Father who becomes the Son when he is off duty?
Sorry. It makes no sense to me.
Christian:-
As a divine being (see definition above), Jesus and the father are of the same substance. As a human being, they are different in substance. The trinity can be understood as three divine beings becoming spiritually one. They are spiritually one because they are unified in purpose.
Comment:-
This would be the Islamic view. The Quran asks us not to make any distinction between Allah and the Messengers. This is because they are one in purpose.
But if that is the view of some Christians then they must believe that the three are distinct in substance.
Christian:-
As a divine being (see definition above), Jesus and the father are of the same substance. As a human being, they are different in substance.
Comment:-
If Jesus and Father are one substance then why have you distinguished them? Earlier you said they were one in purpose. Are you saying that a bit of God came down to earth to become Jesus?
But this is not different from saying that the Spirit of God is in man. From the Islamic point of view this applies to all men. But we do not say that man is God. The difference between the Messenger and ordinary man is this that the Spirit is active in the Messenger but dormant in ordinary man. The Messenger comes to activate the spirit in ordinary man. This is what resurrection is about.
Christian:-
Christians also believe in having a personal relationship with God. This is putting emphasis on knowing who God is rather than knowing what God is. To imply that Christians are committing idolatry is rather far fetched.
Comment:-
Muslims also believe in a personal relationship, but it involves knowing both Who God is, what His relationship with us is and what is required of us. The spirit of God is in us and we are or should be agents of God. This does not require that God should be a man or that a man should be a god. Nor does God need to become man because He is present everywhere.
Christian:-
I was not trying to take away from the Muslim concept of worship. What I was trying to point out that when Christians have a personal relationship with the triune god, this is a far cry from something that is shallow and meaningless. Idolatry has a connection with shallowness. If someone holds onto something that is shallow and meaningless, then the novelty wears off after a short period of time. It seems that Christians feel great joy for an extended period of time.
Comment:-
Idol worshippers would not continue in their actions if they thought it was shallow and meaningless. Joy and satisfaction can be had from delusions also.
As for idolatry: Some Christians do worship Jesus who is a man
Christian :-
Correction: who 'was' a man .. He is not worship because he was a man but because he is a divine being, ie. God in the fullest sense.
Comment:-
The bit of God that was in Jesus on earth went back and became part of God? Or does it remain apart?
There are statues in many churches of Jesus and Mary and various saints. The majority of Christians worship these.
Christian:-
Surely you must know the difference between idols and icons. If you are to use the strictest definition of idolatry (no concept of icons), then bowing towards Mecca can also be considered idolatry. Not only that, the Ark of the Covenant would also be defined as an idol. I myself, do recognize the intent of Muslims is to bow to the presence of God and Mecca is the icon that represents this.
Comment:-
No. I do not agree. An idol is to make an image of God, thereby reducing and limiting him. This makes a false god in the mind. Other images, which do not represent God when worshipped are made into false gods.
The Ark of the Covenant and the Kaaba are not images of God.
Christian:-
By the way, the Protestant churches don't have statues of Jesus and Mary in their churches, not that having these statues is wrong.
Comment:-
I disagree. It is certainly wrong otherwise the Protestant Churches would not have removed them. Protestantism is the result of the impact of Islam. It is a compromise and the Reformation of Christianity has not yet been completed. But it is continuing under the influence of Islam.
There are Christians, including many Bishops who do not think that Jesus was God but that he represented God on earth. This is what Emanuel (God with us) means. Some are true Monotheists and Unitarian and some believe that the Trinity refers to Religion (not God in heaven) in that Religion is presented to us by God in heaven, a Prophet, Messenger or Messiah on earth and the Spirit which connects the two and also connects the rest of the flock to the Messenger and to God. These three are one in purpose. With this view Islam cannot have any quarrels.
In heaven all things return to Allah and there remains nothing but His essence.
Christian:-
Did you examine the beliefs of these Unitarian Christians and are you sure that they are compatible with Islam? I suspect they have a very liberal view that is not compatible with Islam. The consequence is that interpretations can be too loose fitting a presupposition rather than what the text says.
Comment:-
As I said, the Reformation (or rectification by Islam) is not yet complete.
The version of the doctrine you have been giving here is certainly different from what I have been hearing from others. It seems to be a step nearer the Islamic position. But no doubt you will want to deny this. But please do not feel compelled to alter it just for the sake of distancing yourself from Islam.
Christian:-
Before I answer your questions, I will describe the concept of God. The concept of God is simply a spiritual being or a group of spiritual beings that is/are entitled to full worship. As for the definition of a divine being, I have chosen a definition for the purpose of describing the concept of the Trinity. A 'divine being' is one that is entitled to full worship.
Comment:-
This is where Islam and Hebrewism differ from Christianity. The concept of God you describe is more like that of the Greeks, a group of beings on Mount Olympus.
Yes I see that you chose your definitions. That is what logicians do unlike scientists. The former choose concepts and definitions according to their desires, interests or prejudices, while the latter have to fit their ideas to facts.
Christian:-
God is not divisible. The fullness of God came down to Earth to become Jesus and the fullness of God stayed in heaven. The fullness of God is also everywhere. The Father and Holy Spirit can keep the universe in order. The part of God which was in Jesus on earth did not go back and became part of God because Jesus is God.
Comment:-
Three fullness! This makes sense to you? The purpose of Theology, I thought, was to make sense and not nonsense. Jesus was in heaven as Father and on earth as Son? This is like representing God by a circle and drawing a smaller circle in it which is called Son, while the rest is Father? Or like the limb of a person, which is part of the person? Another circle in it would be the Holy Spirit.
So what you are saying is that Jesus is another name for God. The word "Jesus" does not refer to the person of flesh and blood but to the spirit within him. But this is not different from saying that the Spirit of God is in man.
Christian:-
OK granted. The difference with Jesus and everyone else is that Jesus is entitled to worship. No one else is.
Comment:-
The words of Jesus deny this. See Matthew 7:21-23, 19:7 John 4:21,23.24 9:31 John 6:30, 38, 57, 7:16, 8:28, 10:37-38, 12:49
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:22-24
No sign of the Son or Holy Spirit in this. The Quran too denies that there is anything to be worshipped but Allah who is One.
Christian:-
If Christianity is a delusion, it is quite a powerful one. Not only that, this 'delusion' has quite a positive impact on societies in general. Take a look at any corruption index and you will find that predominately Christian countries fill most of the top spots as the least corrupt countries.
Comment:-
This depends on your definitions of Christian. I would deny this. Most people in the West are not, in fact, Christian, though they may called this. There is greater social disintegration, isolation, infanticide, cruelty, murders, violence, exploitation, materialism etc. in the West, specially the USA. These appears to be signs of a much greater lack of love. It seems to me that the Political System in USA is probably the most corrupt in the world. But this may be an impression one gets because its corruption is also exposed more often.
But even if there is greater charity and compassion because people are more prosperous, this does not mean that they cannot be deluded or be superstitious. There is a difference between intellect and feeling.
I have never denied that Christianity teaches love, compassion and charity and that this has had a civilizing effect. But the emphasis on Truth came with Islam and it is the impact of Islam that led to the progress in the sciences in the West. This could only take place when the hold of the Catholic Church was broken and Reformation took place.
An examination of the support for Trinity that you are providing here shows how convoluted the intellectual arguments have to become. Jesus did not teach it. In fact, Islam simplifies things:- (1) There is One indivisible God. (2) He creates all things by His Word and (3) His Spirit is in man which has become dormant. (4) So He sends Messengers with His word, in whom the spirit is still active, in order to revive the spirit in the rest of us.
Simple, without mental gymnastics.
Christian:-
You are mistaken about Islam bringing reformation to Christianity. Protestantism says that people are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Works are not essential to salvation. Catholicism says good works are a part of it. Islam says that works are essential.
Protestantism retains the belief in the Trinity. Even the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which is strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, believes in the Trinity.
Protestantism is more inclined to believe in separation of church and state than Catholicism. Even Catholics are going the direction of state/church separation. This is further away from Islam since Islam is a way of life and must be institutionalized.
Comment:-
All this shows that further Reformation is required.
Protestants still do not follow Jesus:-
"Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but He THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. Many will say to me in that Day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophecied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY." Matthew 7:21-23
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20
"Now we know that God hears not sinners; but if any man be a worshipper of God and does His will, him He hears." John 9:31
And note this:-
"Whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man (Jesus) it shall be forgiven him; but unto him that blasphemes against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven." Luke 12:10
Even Paul did not believe in Trinity:-
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5
"There is actually to us one God the Father,...and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ" 1 Cor. 8:6
"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" Eph. 4:6
"And ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's" 1 Cor. 3:23
The word God is used only for the Father an not as you say. for the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Jesus taught the Lord's Prayer which looks forward to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. This does not separate religion from the state. Nor does the following:-
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5
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